I originally posted this in the member's-only forum, but I'd like to know what everybody else thinks, as well. I'll kick things off with my opinion. What do the rest of you think?

SINCE WE ARE ALL SINNERS--SAVED FROM THE TRIBULATION OR NOT-AND SINCE WE ARE NOT GOD--AND SINCE ONLY GOD KNOWS THE HEART
NONE OF US HUMANS CAN SAY WHO IS OR IS NOT GOING TO HEAVEN, NONE OF US KNOWS WHO OR WHO IS NOT IN HEAVEN INCLUDING
(GULP) ADOLPH HITLER. THE DECISION IS OUR FATHER'S AND HIS
ALONE. VERY DIFFICULT, BUT TRUE.
REMEMBER AFTER THE RESURRECTION, JOHN AND JESUS WERE WALKING AND TALKING AND PETER RUNS UP BEHIND THEM AND
SAYS HEY WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT. JESUS TOLD HIM IT WAS NONE OF HIS BUSINESS AND THAT IF HE WILLED THAT JOHN LIVE UNTIL JESUS CAME AGAIN, WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?
YOU JUST WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN SALVATION. (CLRV) WE CANNOT
KNOW ABOUT OTHERS IN THIS AREA. ONLY GOD KNOWS.
THAT'S MY PROOF. HOW ABOUT YOURS?

The Question was "Do homosexuals go to heaven?"

There is so much difference in doctrines, from various interpretations of scriptures, as Calvinism, etc, I sought the Lord for his word. I received the answer from Him, I wrote this down. He said "This is not to replace the Gospel written in the Bible, it is to enhance the understanding of it." :
"Every sin that was ever committed by all of mankind for all time went upon Jesus Christ as He hung upon the cross of calvary , as he suffered, as He died and His blood was shed, every sin, every transgression of all mankind for all time was all paid for, All that call upon Jesus Christ repenting of their sins and receiving the free gift of salvation shall be saved, even to those who repent to the Father in Jesus name shall be saved for Jesus Christ has a name above all names, exalted above all mankind for all time, Lo, His Love is the greatest Love of all. His suffering was the greatest the world has ever known or will know again, He paid the price in full for man's redemption. Jesus Christ rose from the grave in full authority, and power reigning as your King and Lord forevermore. Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, in full authority, in full power of all mankind for all time.
As Jesus Christ hung upon that cross of calvary on Golgotha's hill, giving His life and His blood, all sins of all mankind were all washed away, including all the effects of that sin, all power of sin was broken, all grief, all sorrow, all shame, all pain, were all washed away, all the punishment for that sin was washed away, all disease, all sickness were all washed away, all the curses brought by that sin was broken, The power of satan was broken forever by Jesus Christ as He suffered and died and His Blood was shed as He hung upon the cross of calvary. All that call unto Jesus Christ, repenting of their sins and accepting the free gift of salvation, shall be saved, even to those who repent to the Father in Jesus Name shall be saved.
Jesus Christ is you King, He is Lord, He is to be worshipped. There is healing for you as you worship Him.
The last days are here now and soon to be over, soon Jesus Christ shall return in the clouds of the Heavens, to bring unto Himself all those who have accepted the Free gift of salvation, Being born again, being cleansed by His Blood, This is what is referred to as the "Rapture of the Church," saith the God of Host.

I received 19 pages when I was taught. I share this with all who will hear. He also gave God's covanant with the Last Days Church in this teaching. I don't have room to add that at this time, but hope to in the future if I am allowed.

Do homosexuals go to heaven? God did not mention that, He said those who are born again, who accept Christ and his blood go to heaven. There is healing as Christ is worshipped. There is healing and deliverance for homosexuals, they must be prayed for. God says it is not His will any be lost. but all receive salvation.

Thanks for your time, God Bless you and all those you love . Marian Gross.

Well I can not write what I really feel so here is a small portion of it .
I believe and read ( can not find it right now brain dead )in the word of God it say something to this effect that man with man and woman with woman with unnatural feelings is abomination in the sight of God .Yes sin is sin but all must account for there own sin on jugdement day.The Lord Jesus our God will forgive you IF you ask and ask for help to be release from your bonds and truly repent .Now I'm not perfect I still eat to much cholate and drink to much diet coke and smoke.I'm not fat.But I believe that gay people go to church and twist the truth to please them and there sin to feel good about there imoral acts is a slap in God face!!!
I all so believe that to claim you love jesus and know the truth and continally commit abominable acts is saying lord jesus you died in vain. ( I THINK NOT) NOT MY JESUS..
Ok I'm sorry went a little off please forgive me I get a little hot temper sometimes .
Love the sinner not the sin
ann

P.s. working on quitting smoking lest then a half pack

While preparing to answer this question, which my 9 year old son just ask me, I struggled with saying no. I believe that all sin is forgiven and the Lord must grant us His grace to overcome our sinful nature. I do have a problem with the gay church. I have issues with any church that ignores parts of the Word to justify their actions. I dont know about your church, but ours is full of addicts. Its a fact that for every 100 people in your congregation, 10 have a porn addiction, that includes your elders and pastor.Some of our congregation are drug addicts, some are work addicts some are addicted to self indulgence with material things. We all came to the cross with ours sins on our shoulders. God is not done with me yet. He removed some things right away and other things he is working on painfully slow. So with this in mind and what jack has pointed out, I believe the answer has to be yes, if that person has truly come to the cross with all of his or her heart. Thanks Jack.

Right on the button Jack.
Experiencing Forgiveness
http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/exploring/studies/EFSG_92329.html

Study is copyrighted but well worth the time spent to see what God's Word really says and what composed much of the early church which included homosexuals and people who struggled with lust, no telling what Paul had to deal with but considered himself to be a "wretched man" always at war with his flesh and only one way to win the battle.
Ro 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Have met homosexuals in Hollywood who hated being what they were, driven to pacify the glands and seeking freedom from this kind of bondage just as many do who are addicted to porno, battle being for the mind.

Sodom destroyed, not because many were homosexuals but because they loved darkness rather than light, violence a way of life. people governed by lust and loving it.

It is a misconception to think this tent of flesh was created in the image of God, only Adam was created in the image of God, all after Adam is in the image of Adam who sold himself into slavery to satan which meant that the entire human race is born into slavery to satan in being sons and daughters of a slave.

Life was even offered to the Nephilim and they would have lived right along with Noah and his family if there had been repentence, God kept Noah preaching for something like 600-800 years which is a long time to warn of judgment and preach repentence which is a change of mind and direction, Nephilim would always be Nephilim because of the DNA but still the battle being for the mind to change and accept God's gift of life in giving Himself.

I was the same as "Legion" of Mark 5 and Luke 8, but if anything am living proof that there is nobody beyond God's reach which is a choice.

I do have a problem with the gay church. I have issues with any church that ignores parts of the Word to justify their actions.
===================
There is a big difference between homosexuals who seek or desire change which will happen if Jesus indwells that person. Groups like the Metro Church of LA will justify lust and the practice of homosexual interactions, seeing no need for repentence, but lust is lust no matter how it is expressed.

http://www.ufmcc.com/index.htm

Their statement of faith looks good and is true, but then we have to move to the area of the flesh to see what else they believe and practice.

ALL are welcome in MCC...
a worldwide fellowship of Christian
churches with a special outreach to
the world's gay, lesbian, bisexual and
transgender communities. (but not for the purpose of repentance)

Here is a newsletter from the founder of Metropolitan Community Churches. He does make some valid points but still lust is not
something dealt with for what it is, can not redefine something to make it acceptable.

A Message from Rev. Troy D. Perry
Founder and Moderator, Metropolitan Community Churches

Dear Saints:
I'm excited to share with you today one of the most important theological breakthroughs in the 33-year history of Metropolitan Community Churches.
Let me explain...
For many centuries, Christian churches and denominations used the six "clobber passages" of the Bible to condemn gay and lesbian Christians.
But when God called me to begin Metropolitan Community Churches in 1968, I had several spiritual experiences:
1.  God gave me an inner conviction that God's gay and lesbian children were loved and welcomed by God. God's Word in Romans 8:16 became real to me: "The Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
2.  I knew the Church had held biblical interpretations -- sometimes for centuries -- that it later came to see as misinterpretations. Sadly, this happened with the biblical justification of slavery, the oppression of women, and acceptance of racism. In each of these cases, the Church came to admit that centuries of biblical interpretation were in error.
3.  I knew how easy it was for people to read their prejudices and biases into God's Word -- rather than letting God's Word speak its own truth.
In the early days of MCC, I made a commitment -- a commitment to study God's Word and find out what the Scriptures really said about homosexuality. And one other thing is worth noting: I was committed to following this research wherever it took me. I had no desire to use Scripture to justify my beliefs -- I wanted to align my life with God's will and God's heart.
So I plunged into my research.
I participated in debates. I read biblical commentaries. I met with theologians. I studied the writings of Jewish rabbis and commentaries on the Hebrew Scriptures by Jewish theologians and historians. I read books on the science and theories of biblical interpretation.

Early MCCers began to form interpretations based on the latest scholarship, the cultural context of biblical days, and the leading of God's Spirit.
Out of this research, the founding members and ministers of Metropolitan Community Churches became convinced that the six "clobber passages" traditionally used against gays and lesbians had been interpreted out of context. Past church leaders had read their own biases into the verses.

For the past 33 years, Metropolitan Community Churches have challenged the Church to re-examine God's Word as it relates to homosexuality. Thanks to the boldness, faithfulness and ministry of MCCers like you, the role of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered persons in the Church has moved to the forefront of almost every Christian denomination.

Together, we have forever changed the face of Christianity.

Now comes one of the most significant theological breakthrough in my 33 years of ministry with MCC.
I'm holding in my hands a copy of the New Oxford Annotated Bible, Third Edition.
This ecumenical study Bible contains the Revised Standard Version of the Bible. This new edition was supervised by Oxford University with study and research notes edited by the world's outstanding biblical scholars.
This is the world's premier study Bible -- and in a major breakthrough for GLBT people of faith everywhere -- its footnotes and study materials incorporate many of MCC's biblical interpretations and views.
In the new study Bible, the views and interpretations of the "clobber passages" use the theology and interpretations we have developed within MCC!
Imagine the joy I felt when I recently opened a package from a scholar, educator and friend to find a copy of The New Oxford Annotated Bible, Third Edition -- along with a handwritten inscription that read, "Thanks for your life and ministry which have helped to shape the scholarship of this edition. May God continue to bless you and UFMCC in your quest for truth."
Let me share a few illustrations with you:
-- For 33 years, we have been teaching that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, understood in the Jewish context of that day, was the sin of severe inhospitality to strangers. This interpretation appears in The New Oxford Annotated Bible.
-- In Jude 7, this version offers the alternate reading that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "went after other flesh" -- leading to the interpretation that their sin was against angelic visitors, not other humans, and thus could not be a reference to homosexuality.
-- In Romans 1, the footnotes in the new version indicate that this passage is used "to denote not the orientation of sexual desire, but its immoderate indulgence," that is, it is not a prohibition of God's gift, but a prohibition against its misuse.
-- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 adopts MCC's interpretation that these verses prohibit temple prostitution -- not homosexuality.
The Leviticus passage is the least clear -- though it is set in the larger context of differentiating the Children of Israel from the hostile nations that surrounded them.
All-in-all, the world renowned biblical scholars who prepared The New Oxford Annotated Bible have adopted a great deal of MCC's own scholarship and theology: There is no biblical condemnation of homosexuality -- only prohibitions against its misuse, just as there is no biblical blanket condemnation of heterosexuality, only prohibitions against misuse of that gift.
I am pleased to commend this new study version of the Holy Scriptures. I believe it will be an important addition to the library of every MCC leader -- and will be used by God to further open the doors of all faith communities to love, embrace and affirm God's GLBT children.
In Christ,
/signed/
Rev. Troy D. Perry
Founder and Moderator
Metropolitan Community Churches

Bingo Lou! The discussion was not about how bad homosexuality is, the question was can homosexuals
go to heaven. I am so glad you described so well
what i have witnessed so much here in Greensboro,NC.
During the 90's we were fighting desperately to
keep the sex ed. program that had been accepted,
recommended by seicus and the large homosexual
population in this city out of our schools. WE were way out-numbered.
At the end of one of the meetings/negotiations with
the people in power. I will never forget a man who
confronted me after the meeting. This man was trying
to shock me with sexual details, but that's hard
to do......After he realized he could not shock me, he
started pouring his heart out. Then the Holy Spirit
took over in how to listen to vulgar things, and then
what to say. This man was a tortured soul. My heart and
soul just became filled with his anguish and hopelessness.
It was as if I felt exactly how tortured he was.
When he was finished, I knew he knew how wrong he had
been in choosing his lifestyle, because one of the last
things he said was "You don't know what it's like to have
to masterbate every 15 minutes". I put my hand on his arm
and told him there was Peace for him if he wanted it.
I was surprised he let me touch him. He pulled away after
I spoke. If a person like me can be forgiven, anyone can.
we do not choose or even guess who's going to heaven or not
Only God knows the hearts of men. He decides, not we.

Jesus never came into the world to condemn homosexuals regardless of how the church behaves today.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

If I had gone to Hollywood with such deep resentment I would have misrepresented Jesus to Hollywood, maybe why God did things the way He did in sending a dirty old man and making it known how much He loved this dirty old man and not ashamed to be so close that I had to ask a stupid question after breaking wind and asking God if He could smell it, but people got to see the heart of God in His treatment of me, as I made Howard Stern look like a saint by comparison.

Not many are fully aware of the homosexual agenda that Chuck Missler deals with in an audio section of his website:
The Missler Report
http://www.khouse.org/misslerreport/personal/19990125-42.html

* What happened in the visions at Fatima?
* What great strength can we Christians have if we bind ourselves together against the Enemy instead of attacking each other and fighting alone?
* How can we help homosexuals see the power of Christ's grace and healing love?
January 25-29, 1999
Chuck & John - Humor in Christian Media
Chuck & John - Visions of Mary
Chuck & John - Apologetics
Chuck & John - The Changing Field Of Battle
Chuck & John - Homosexuality

Need to see the emphesis here that Chuck gives to God's grace and healing love, if we present the gospel in any other way we only misrepresent the whole reason for God becoming a man to regain the world in order to take His treasure out of it, that includes homosexuals who accept the provision made for them as well as all others,
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Any who has accepted God's free gift of His Son and relying on Him to get us out of this place with all our defects and failures and warts and all that, all will be dancing the streets of heaven togeather, God only communes with the spirit He has given, just a personal responsibility to keep the flesh nailed to the cross daily,
not gong to be what we are today when all are changed in an instant and moved into a house not made with hands that is neither one sex or the other.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This would even include the hermephrodite who is both male and female and born that way, not a choice except to obstain from lust driven interactions and that is all inclusive, lust is lust and no way to justify it with redefinitions.

Hello
This is such a hot topic. So to make sure that I knew what I was talking a about I called my pastor and ask him if gay people go to heaven. And his answer was this:

A gay person can go to heaven if they are saved and turn from there sin (stop being homo. or les.).
2 corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 and all things are of god, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Also read romans 1 : 23-32
the sign of the last days
For the ones born with both sex parts I leave that to God for I do not understand that.

Now as for the preachers that are committing fornication through porn it is better for that person to never know Jesus then to know him and fall back into sin.
2 thessalonians 2:10-13
I know nothing without my Lord Jesus . I've know Jesus in my head for many years. I did not Know him in my heart I was a walking fool. Today I know Jesus in my heart .I praise God that I belong to him.
For I live in this world but I'm not of this world...

LET ME ASK YOU ALL DO YOU REALLY KNOW JESUS IN YOUR HEART NOT JUST IN YOUR MIND??
GOD MADE US NOT FOR TIME BUT FOR ETERNATY
Your sister in Christ
ann

See it for what it is, not how it has been redefined.
Should be a wake up call to know the homosexual agenda which is in line with end times and just what the Mystery of Iniquity is all about that Paul writes of, God is sovereign and in control, allowing evil to produce what scripture speaks of 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Judgment is certain, God wanting us to really get to know Him and His nature to understand another truth that He will never judge the righteous with the wicked, but judgment begins when the righteous are taken out of the way, revealing that man of sin. We do not see the church anywhere on the planet after Revelation 4:1
Re 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
We see the heavenly scene, but then on earth we see what comes immediatly after the righteous are taken out of the way.
Rev. 5: 1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


As we see a corrupt church evolving, we are getting a glimpse of the church that Jesus condemns that is universal, incorporating all religions and lifestyles, tolerant of deviate practices.

1Co 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Ga 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

As we study the militant homosexual agenda we see it is all about lust and power with an outward deceptive cloak of christianity in movements like the Metro Community Church.
Satan could never win a head on conflict, so he joined the church to do the damage as a Super- Saint.

Jesus says to come as you are, but people don't stay that way or else it is only a mind game. If Jesus is not Lord of all then He is not Lord at all. we do not come to Him on our own terms and discard what is not suitable to us. It is all or nothing at all.

Part of the worldly church:

Metropolitan Community Church
Coming Out

Coming out as a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered person is a unique story for each of us. It is a mixed bag of emotions and experiences. Part of coming out is relief and acceptance -- of finally realizing the whys of being different and finding the comfort of others that are like you. Unfortunately, coming out often includes a "cutting off" from family, friends, colleagues and church -- initiated by us, them or both.

We of MCC want you to know that God does not cut you off because of your new found sexual identity. In fact, the life of Jesus exemplifies the reaching out of God to those who are rejected by society or of less fortune than others. You, as are all, are welcome in the family of God and Christ.

Your "coming out" may be a quick or a long, complex process. It usually involves positive and negative feelings and experiences. It may occur when you are a teenager or as a young or older adult. You may have already gone down the road of "straight" relationships, marriage or children. Your sexual coming out experience may have been an affirming, consensual experience, or it may have involved or been preceded by troubling confusion or sexual abuse. Families and friends may be accepting or rejecting -- regardless, they are certain to be concerned for your welfare and fearful of the unknowns in your future.

Unsettling issues surrounding your religious upbringing and spiritual beliefs are likely to come into play in your coming out -- both initially and over the long term. Many have experienced a "spiritual coming out" that starts during the mental/physical coming out and then takes much longer time to evolve. Because of religious homophobia, initially there is often rejection, or spiritual dormancy, frustration and anger towards God and organized religion.

It is our prayer that in your coming out, you will consider continuing or starting an active, prayerful relationship with God. MCC participants readily acknowledge that this can be a great comfort in your "coming out" process and in the continuing experiences of your life. MCC provides a place for Christian openly gay role models. Please know that you are a fully welcomed member of God's family in any MCC and a growing number of inclusive theology churches throughout the U.S. and the world. God has not rejected you, only many churches.

How to Get Your Denomination to Ordain Homosexuals

-A 15 step strategy that will work-
http://www.indwes.edu/tuesday/homo.htm

==========
Get educated about the homosexual agenda, the real goals and motives.

If there is no repentence, there is no regeneration or new beginning, but a homosexual who repents and turns is washed just as clean as any other who repents, just as clean as if they had never sinned at all. Ps 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

When a person realizes that they are a sinner. And, they confess their sins before the Lord. And, ask Jesus to come into their heart. That person is spiritually "born again." But, that doesn't mean we don't ever sin again! We still have our sinful nature from our physical birth. And, if one sin is not any worse than another sin. A lie is not worse than stealing. Nor is smoking worse than drinking. The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming of the Holy Ghost, (Matt. 12:31,Mk. 3:29, Lk. 12:10.) I always thought that Homosexuality was about as bad as anything a person could be. But, like I said, no sin is worse than another. Christians sin, period. But, praise God, we can go to Him and confess our sins. We have an Advocate! 1 Jn. 2:1, "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous." A christian isn't to practice sin. But, we do fall. Without our Advocate, where would anybody be!? For myself, this is my thought about whether a homosexual can go to heaven.

In Christ, Becky

My adopted son was a cold blooded killer, not a legal adoption but more like Paul and Timothy 1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

Charlie physically beat a man to death who happened to be the leading citizen of Macon County, GA back in 1975, Charlie wanting me to share God's Word with him while he was awaiting execution, but back then I needed people teaching me the very basic things, only saying that I had contacted many to help in that way but was always left with a bad feeling that Charlie would be exploited and then dumped like Eldrege Cleaver, so he was stuck with me, could only promise to stick with him the whole distance and share what I learn which kept me in God's Word day and night.

I think the best teachers are learners, but we both learned how to connect and get a response from God as Daniel and the lady who caused Jesus to turn and say "Who touched me ?"

At any rate, would have to ask the same question about cold blooded killers, Can a cold blooded killer go to heaven ? the answer is the same, yes. Charlie having been a cold blooded killer who repented and had no conditions at all about how God would wash him clean just as He says and his sin no longer remembered. But what if Charlie continued killing after saying the sinners prayer and all that ? this is how we must seperate homosexuals from homosexuals, no longer practicing what they have been delivered from or still practicing what they think is OK to continue doing in being attracted to people of the same sex, having sex with the same sex and even getting married to the same sex.

David was a murderer but God still told Solomon that David was sinless while Solomon still had things to repent of and was not innocent as David even though Solomon never killed anybody.

We can say that we never did stuff that we find repulsive in others who get down and weird with each other, but we are just as guilty about other things even if it is just putting a false image out there for people to look at and knowing that is not who or what we are at all, doubt if many would keep a diary of every thought, word and deed and then make it public, will see that there just ain't no such thing as a super saint no matter how popular or what position held in the church, would still be no better than a homosexual in God's sight.

Jesus deliberately chose the example of the publican and the sinner in Luke 18, lowest of the low compared to a self proclaimed super saint of his time, Jesus condemned the almost perfect dude while the other dirt bag was justified. Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

heavy stuff

I'm not say gays don't go to heaven I believe all will go if they stop and repent .
I'm a sinner saved by grace through faith..
I've broke all ten commandments and I will admit that I still sin for my flesh is week but I'm wash clean when I spot my sin and ask for forgiveness.
Whatever you do don't ask the Lord to show you your sins that you don't see unless your ready.
I did and was not ready . I was very prideful,selfcenter,help people only if the spot light was on me . And I was commetting adultery through my eyes . and one more thing I lied always to boast myself up. All these are my thorns in my side .I fights these fleshly sins everyday sometimes it easy and sometimes it's not.
The road to heaven is narrow and the road to hell is wide

All I have to say about the gay churches is suddusing spirits are running wild. With satans throne in the middle of it.

I cannot judge for that whould make me a fool.
Your sister in Christ
ann

We can only proclaim God's Word that has the authority of God in it and this is what discerns good from evil and true from false, very easy to look at the gay church and gay movement and see how satan presents himself as an angel of light, using God's Word out of context to challenge God's Word as satan did in the garden.

I have seen carnal christians fall into various types of sin like a pastor who was delivered of heroin and then tempted to go back into what he had been delivered of and now has spend a number of years in and out of drug rehab centers.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

A carnal christian is dead spiritually, saved but still dead since fellowship is broken, sin hiding their face from God. Jesus says that He wants us hot or cold Re 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Answer still has to be yes if a person was genuine in the beginning but we can not have things both ways and we choose who we will serve each day according to what we yield ourselves to.

The homosexual church and others use Sodom and Gemorrah as an example to say that neglecting the poor and ill treatment of strangers was the reason for the destruction, but need to go back to the book of Jonah, why God spared Nineveh and why God later destroyed Nineveh when men became as women or effeminate in their desire for one another. God was merciful when there was repentence but judgment was also certain if there was no repentence.

As a side note, Nineveh was the capital of Syria as Damascus is today and the total destruction of Damascus is certain which we may see before we get out of this place.
============
Rather than continue posting new stuff, just though I would add to this one, giving a bit of my history.

I also ran like Jonah when there was no doubt about who God was sending me to, my exact response to it all was "Bleep no, I ain't going !" but the message to practicing homosexuals was exactly as the message to the others of Hollywood and New York, John 3:16 applied to them all.

I met a singer by the name of Barry Mannalo or however you spell it, but even though there was no condemnation to anybody, Barry still related that he did not want to be any other way than how he is and it was the same with Elton John, bottom line being "No repentence, no hope"

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The gospel message just never got through to either of these people, always coming back with all the misrepresentation they have been bashed with which made them bitter, especially Elton John and you can hear this bitterness in some of his music.

It is still uncomfortable for me to love people who make me very nervous but it is that love of God that won't let me walk away from Hollywood and know I will be sent back again when the time is right and the temptation will be there to run like Jonah again, but that would leave me with bloody hands.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Really need to take it all to heart, will be judged also of our neglect and things we have failed to do rather than what we have done.
God does not judge without first warning of judgment and what applied to Ezekiel also applies to us.

All I can say Lou is Amen!
I pray to God that some day I will wisdom like you .
MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY
ann

Wow. So good to have Jack and Lou. I was somehow led to a web site for kids. Since I am still enslaved to rock music
and the need to know how these kids are dealing with this
Alice in Wonderland, upside-backwards world we live in I just signed up. I told the whole truth. 48 yr.old aging rocker. Been there, done that and still going through it. I chose a site for GLBT...Homosexuals. Child homosexuals.
Some of the postings from 'Christians' are horrible. They
label themselves and then go on diatribes freely laced with
the F word and various other hate-filled messages. I was mortified and ashamed of their postings. Of course, the replies are just as hateful.
However, the most vile replies are reserved for a homosexual
named Boi..something. He is struggling with his lifestyle.
He hates himself and the Homosexual Movement in general.
He sounds just like Paul when Paul says that which I would
do, I do not; and that which I don't want to do, I do.
Man, the people just hate him, because he is questioning
himself and his and others' lifestyle. He is pretty bold,
though, against the hatred aimed at him. It is such a rich
field for the harvest. I have posted a few things. I was
shocked at the reception. People who reply hatefully, later
send me questions about this and that. UNBELIEVABLE!
I pray very hard before answering anything, and then the words just come on out. I pray for the hardest heart to send
me ugly replies. I pray for the most angry, indignant notes.
They are the easiest to answer, it seems. How cool of God!
Last night I got a letter from a Jewish lesbian. Who knew?

hey carol
please post the web sight so I can check it out and maybe help you
thank you
ann

http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/itselementary/
This is a video presented to children as young as 4th graders
introduced by the gay community, several websites listed of gay groups who have helped to promote this video and introduced it into the educational system.

GLAAD - gay and lesbian alliance against defamation. glaad.org

PFLAG - parents, friends and families of lesbians and gays. pflag.org

GLSEN - Web site for the gay, lesbian and straight education network. glsen.org

NGLTF - national gay and lesbian task force. ngltf.org

Queer Resources Directory - 23,487 files about "everything queer." qrd.org

The P.E.R.S.O.N. Project - an activist network for inclusive curricular policies. Includes information about how gay, bisexual and transgender people are presented to America's youth as part of public school education. youth.org

Outproud - a national coalition for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender youth. outproud.org

LYRIC - a community center for questioning gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth. lyric.org

Youth Resource - advocates for youth pride. youthresource.com

Pacific Center - The premier lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning community center online. pacificcenter.org

Planet Out - a similar welcoming online community. planetout.com

Oasis Magazine - this page specifically addresses anti-gay harassment statistics and information. oasismag.com

Safe School's Coalition - anti-violence documentation project. safeschools-wa.org

Family Pride Coalition - supports and protects gays, lesbian, bisexual and transgender parents and families. familypride.org

C.O.L.A.G.E. - children of lesbians and gays everywhere, support and advocacy. colage.com

wow I'm dumb founded I had no idea that there where so many I am isalated thank you
of cross I'll have to use another user name because they won't talk to someone with the name jesusdied4us00
your sister in christ
ann

This is a super hot topic and can understand why it can mess with the mind, just have to be very spacific in matters of repentence and what people repent of in exchanging old for new which takes it all to the place of the spirit and not the flesh any longer.

I have had a great deal of compassion for some who are BOTH male and female, having the genitals of both and very confused about what gender they are. No way is repentence needful for being the way they were born, thinking it is criminal to put some kind of guilt trip on them for this when some I met are about as moral as anybody can get and chose a lifestyle of being celebate and very devoted to Jesus, but society often lumps them togeather with homosexuals when they are not homosexuals, just hermephradites or however you spell it.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

One thing for sure is that we ain't got long until Jesus puts an end to everything having to do with the flesh and will see that the new creature is as Jesus is, neither male of female according to the flesh.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Going to be awesome to be complete as the first man Adam before the creation of Eve, wish I could elaborate but words fail me to think of that day and how it will be, since there is much more written about hell then heaven, God just wanting to surprise us, but have to say that one of the first things I may do is to check out what kind of plumbing I got.

Will have to do some study regarding the homosexuals who followed Jesus, I know there were two but who did not stay that way, just like anybody else who is transformed by the renewing of the mind, what applies to homosexuals applies to anybody else,
since God does not communicate with flesh or the natural.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The gay community will always take things down to the level of the flesh ( or trying to have it both ways ) that already has a death sentence passed on it, but I find in every place that the entire christian community is very ignorant regarding hermaphrodites, that is of the flesh, but God looking far past all that to the spirit where there is neither male or female or Jew or Gentile, getting that message across to the Hollywood bunch being next to impossible, recalling back in 1994 both Elton John and Barry Manilow said they did not want to be any other way and I did not know how to respond to that, since it was like anybody else saying that they wanted to be Sons of Adam rather than Sons of God. the Christian commmunity is ignorant of the fact that everybody after Adam are the sons of Adam created in the image of Adam and not God, only Adam was created in the image of God, only blood bought people restored in the image of God which is very seperate from the flesh and the natural man.

This is what Paul has to say about the Natural Man:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We can do a great deal of harm by confronting both the gay and deviate communities with limited understanding, telling all that if love ain't the reason then we have no business interacting with these folks in the first place, since we will only misrepresent the reason why God became a man to redeem lost man to himself.

"We can do a great deal of harm by confronting both the gay and deviate communities with limited understanding, telling all that if love ain't the reason then we have no business interacting with these folks in the first place, since we will only misrepresent the reason why God became a man to redeem lost man to himself."

That is a great statement, Lou. It makes my skin crawl when Christians use hateful words to attack sinners. (as if they were not sinners)

1 John 3:11
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

Hey Ann. The site is called 'Bolt'. I don't know how I got
there. I am NCAUNTIE!! Your name can stay the same--there
are lots of kids who out themselves as Christians. Just be
able to handle the heat. There are lots of boards you can
visit. It is a rich field for harvest. Be cool and let God
do the talking!!!! God bless. Carol

We often misunderstand the reasons why God destroyed Sodom and Gemmorah, but Ezekiel spells it out,
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49).

We also fit into this catagory in just living for ourselves while doing all the right religious stuff, need to step back and evaluate where we are really at and what we are neglecting to do rather than what we are doing.

Homosexuality may give us a weird kind of feeling to think about, but the truth is that we can be worse in just being self oriented and selfish rather than selfless.

Almost need to start a Part 2 since this is a subject that I hope may help to shed some light on things that many are ignorant about.

I have been almost desperate to understand another phase of things that have to do with the nature of one's birth, recently locating a website that has been helpful in understanding those who Jesus makes reference to in Matthew 19
Mt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

When going deep into this verse in all of the translations and Greek original words, it finally registered that Jesus was making reference to people who are born with both male and female parts, just unable to produce children.

The internet mostly have these people linked with the gays and deviates, but nothing could be further from the truth, just kind of off topic regarding homosexuals, but these people are not homosexuals as most assume them to be.

One of the finest examples of a true christian hermaphrodite can be found at http://www.isgi.org/isgi/ Debora Brown being a full time Batist missionary although she has been kicked out of a Baptist church only because of the nature of her birth and that is criminal.

I would like to invite some of these believers to help set matters straight in shinning some light on our ignorance and accept people as people and family who are as blood bought as any other.

Debora will answer email or some other in her support group to give things from a christian perspective, her email is on her website.

Dear Lou, I can't let this go by anymore. I am so interested when I see a new posting from you, but one thing cannot go on unchallenged. You say that only Adam was created in the image of God and all the rest of us are of the image of Adam.
I disagree,because of what is written in the Scriptures.
As soon as Noah got off the boat God told him he could eat
hamburgers. The second thing God said was that from then on
there would be a death penalty for murderers.
God usually doesn't give reasons for what He decrees, but this time He did. He said because man is made in My image if a man takes another man's life, he must forfeit his own
life. This is why human life is supposed to be cansidered sacred. In fact, human life is considered sacred, because man is made in the image of God. God ended His decree establishing the death penalty for murderers with the big one: FOR I AM THE LORD THY GOD. That's why I believe what I believe. Any comments or reasons why what I believe is incorrect? Carol

Howdy Do

I agree with most of what you wrote. Just separating spirit from flesh. The real us is spirit after God's image rather than our flesh that many dwell on such as the gay community and also the intersex community of people who are both male and female if the genitalia determins this.

Pastor Stedman's sermons are copyrighted, but worth the time to examine and see where I was coming from as well.

THE GLORY AND THE MISERY OF MAN
by Ray C. Stedman
http://pbc.org/dp/stedman/genesis/0308.html
==================
ADAM'S BOOK
by Ray C. Stedman

http://pbc.org/dp/stedman/genesis/0324.html
The first thing said in Adam's book is that Seth was made in the image and likeness of his father. He was the exact duplicate of what Adam was, and so every son and daughter of Adam has been since. Again, this is why the Bible is so contemporary -- it is dealing with us. We find ourselves here because we too are sons and daughters of Adam and share the same characteristics as Seth, the son of Adam, one generation removed. When the account uses this phrase, "in his own likeness, after his image," it is referring to the hidden, inner pattern of man, and the actual outward characteristics. Seth was what Adam was, both in his inner life and his outer life. He was, therefore, a fallen man.
=====================
You will find some of the most beautiful christian people in the least likely of places, thankful to have crossed paths with some of these people born with both male and female genitals and only seeing an equal rather than a freak of nature. Some I view as being after God's own heart, born again after God's own image.

Howdy do to you too. I can understand the spirit thing.
Jesus called the Pharasees of His time either sons or children of their father,Satan, because of their horrible unGodly deeds, thoughts, and judgements.
I'm not talking spiritual only, though. All human beings
are created in the image of God. Period. Even after Adam sinned, as proven by the text in Genesis, spoken to Noah, all human beings are said to be created in the image of God.
We needed Jesus, the second Adam (as referred to by some, in this context), to be first-born of God and to live a spotless life, and to be the Lamb of God at Passover. Sacrificed once and for all time. To be the Redeemer of all who would believe. Now that's what I'm talking about. If you don't split hairs, we agree on both points.

Here's one for you. I want to know what you believe, not think, this time. I believe, and I believe
it very strongly; Every human being, conceived and/or born
IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE until that person chooses one way or the other, to believe or not to believe.
I BELIEVE THAT EVERY HUMAN BEINGS' NAME IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE UNTIL IT IS BLOTTED OUT.
Deductive reasoning. A name cannot be blotted out until it
is already in The Book. It was written in the book at the beginning of time. AND THAT'S THAT!!!!! Oh, except that I also believe that we are witnessed to, by the Lord Himself,
in the womb. This can only explain my very young life. I always knew Him. I can never remember when I didn't know my
Redeemer liveth. I can never remember a time in my very early time when I did not know Him. It only made me want to know Him more.
What sayeth thee, without hermaphrodytes (sp?). We understand each other on that.

I BELIEVE THAT EVERY HUMAN BEINGS' NAME IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE UNTIL IT IS BLOTTED OUT.
=================
Absolutely.
Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

It is still true that all are born with a sin nature, never had to be taught to lie or be selfish or rebel, it came naturally, had to be taught not to do things that were human nature to do.

I believe that many will be amazed to see just how fair and just God's judgments are when the books are opened and who Jesus views as goats or sheep when He separates them.

Idolatry has always been the cause of judgment and that is a choice of who one will serve.

De 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Has to be in there in order to be blotted out or erased and people are the ones who cause that to happen since God does not condemn anybody.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Just as a P.S.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

natural , sensual

1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with
the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

With all that written, even the Nephilim were given an opportunity to live if they believed and heeded the message that Noah was preaching, did not matter that they were not entirely human, God would have still been merciful not to destroy the world except for Noah and those brought into the ark with him.

Brings things around to another interesting subject since the Nephilim have been breeding after the flood as well, the Anakims were also Nephilim who populated an area in Gaza. Goliath was a Nephilim.

Have to just jot it all down in a book of quesions yet to be fully answered, finding it best to be silent where God's Word is silent on some matters just between God and individuals that a subject matter may pertain to rather than everyone in general.

P.S.S.

In staying more with the thread regarding homosexuals and the question of do they go to heaven, you may enjoy a usenet group of christians who have been delivered from that lifestyle to tell it like it is http://freejesus.net/home/index.php They could no doubt help in dealing with people in the homosexual community who are in denial regarding sin and the matter of fornication. Just a word of warning that they also have an area for homosexuals to post and respond to posts, but can learn a lot from those who have been there and had their eyes opened to seek deliverence.

Regarding a believe in God, that never saved anybody. Am certain that those in the homosexual community who do not want to live any other way also believe in God, just in denial of their condition before God. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1Jo 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

I had been a christian for 50+ years but still more like a Baby Huey or overgrown duck in diapers who never made it out of the crib to begin that journey towards maturity, not fully aware of right and wrong until Jesus lifted the blindness to show things along the way where the relationship becomes more intimate as we mature and not just saying goo-goo which is baby talk and Jesus wanting much more from us as we learn obedience and growing up through trials and adversity.

P.S.S.S.

Was just refered to a neat site to share, would love to see some of these folks add some input

CHRISTIANS NO LONGER GAY LIVING FOR GOD
http://cnlglfg.com/

Reply to Lou, again. I have never met another Christian who believed all are written in the book until they are blotted out. Most, who have even thought about it, think that you are written in the book as soon as you believe.
The great majority have not even thought about it. Well, except you now.
Last night I was switching around on the t.v. Discovery Channel had a show called "Boy or Girl?". Since we've been
educated by you on this matter, I watched it. I had seen it before, but this time with more insight from you on the subject. I still felt absolute rage at the mutilator. He really had no qualms about playing God and mutilating these
infants, even with the knowledge of the havoc this mutilation had caused in the grown-up lives of the mutilated
before he came along. Assigning a sex to an infant! I still
become absolutley enraged.
You are better off being born in a third world country. A child was born there and left alone. He was raised as a girl
until 8 or 9, because that's what it looked like.
At 8 or 9 he refused to where a dress anymore. He got his hair cut short, despite his mother's objections. A few years
later the hormones started pouring into his body, and the unseen emerged. They were just there, not seen, until they dropped down. He is sterile, I think, but was happy being a
boy.
The American's had a whole different story to tell. One had
had her clitoris REMOVED AS AN INFANT. Suicidal. One had been assigned a boy--wrong again. Living in San Francisco with another sex-assigned boy. You were right--I missed the BIG MESSAGE the first time I saw this program. There's
a home for them in San Francisco, with the homosexual community.
The infant mutilating 'doctor', as his last and best defense
said he did and still does his infant mutilations, and the most important reason to continue this practice was to
EASE THE PARENT'S DISCOMFORT!!! WHAT???? What a crock!!!
Forgive me, but I hope there's a special place in Hell for
him. What a self-righteous bastard.

Intersexed people really need the compassion and understanding of the rest of the christian community or maybe just a circle of christian friends who welcome them as an equal without viewing any as a freak of nature.

I have spent many hours on the net searching for groups who do not lump the hermaphrodite into the same catagory with homosexuals, sin to be a practicing homosexual while not a sin to be a hermaphrodite, meeting some who live celibate lives and in no way are homosexuals, but the gay community seems to be the only people who welcome them in giving a place to settle in and join the militants who distort God's Word in order to continue a lifestyle involving fornication and lust and living in denial by redefining what things are not agreeable, Jack having it right as many desire a freedom TO sin rather than being free FROM sin.

I have seen that movie before regarding a doctor or parent making the decision of what sex they want a child to be who is born with both male and female genitalia, why you find so many prone to suicide and outcasts or isolated, really rips me to think about it.

I have no idea where God is going with things but am staying available to be a friend to any I cross paths with, knowing that God is not looking for ability, just availability, so I just say " Here I am, send me".

Lou, are you still on the west coast?

I am right on the border between Los Angeles county and San Bernardino county. 30 min. from Hollywood if the traffic is light.